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Terry Pratchett Lecture
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sulcus
 02 Feb 2010, 11:01 #81132 Reply To Post
Considered here on my blog
"A,B&E", "Not In My Name" and "52FF" (flash fiction anthology) all available on Amazon Kindle

"How a psychopath makes sweet love. I can get you ringside. Royal box even."
AntCity
 02 Feb 2010, 14:09 #81141 Reply To Post
Quote: sulcus, Tuesday, 2 Feb 2010 11:01
Considered here on my blog


Interesting blog. Both of your examples, Pratchett and Potter, are famous for their minds not their bodies. Both, at your point of recall, were still thinking. At what point do you jump, drink, inject? When comes the point when there is nothing left to give?

I heard Pratchett on the radio talking about some conjured up little old lady, rapping on the table with her walking stick, the panel of ethical experts sitting before her, demanding she should be allowed to go now. Seems to me she had loads of life left in her.

We are all born to die. Life has no meaning without death. Our children and our books are all born from our mortality. So at what point do we give up? When does a choice become a duty? When does a duty become compulsion? When does compulsion become law? When is my time to die decided by somebody else?

Pain and suffering. We are fortunate to live in a society where these things can be cloaked to a certain extent. The fear of decline and extinction cannot. Take comfort that we all share the same fate at some point. Lets not reduce the value of life (what some would call its sanctity) to mere pragmatism; that would help solve the pensions short fall.

Efficiency and progress is ours once more...
sulcus
 02 Feb 2010, 16:28 #81148 Reply To Post
Quote: AntCity, Tuesday, 2 Feb 2010 14:09
Quote: sulcus, Tuesday, 2 Feb 2010 11:01
Considered here on my blog


Interesting blog. Both of your examples, Pratchett and Potter, are famous for their minds not their bodies. Both, at your point of recall, were still thinking. At what point do you jump, drink, inject? When comes the point when there is nothing left to give?

I heard Pratchett on the radio talking about some conjured up little old lady, rapping on the table with her walking stick, the panel of ethical experts sitting before her, demanding she should be allowed to go now. Seems to me she had loads of life left in her. The most interesting point I felt he made, was when considering the progress of his disease which at some point would strip him of both the consciousness, memories and identity of THE Terry Pratchett which he has built up over the past 59 years to equal who he is today - so that this former (current day) Terry Pratchett wants to rule over the death of a different Terry Pratchett that the disease will wreak and impose in his stead. At what point can such transformation be said to have definitively occurred?

We are all born to die. Life has no meaning without death. Disagree. If you stopped to consider it at any length - and I admit we seem constituted to push it as far away from our daily thought as possible - life has no meaning because of death which pulls the rug from under all of our achievements, loves and purpose. That's why religious creeds try and offer an escape clause Our children and our books are all born from our mortality. So at what point do we give up? When does a choice become a duty? When does a duty become compulsion? When does compulsion become law? When is my time to die decided by somebody else?

Pain and suffering. We are fortunate to live in a society where these things can be cloaked to a certain extent. The fear of decline and extinction cannot. Take comfort that we all share the same fate at some point. Take comfort? I can't. Neither self-help realisation nor religious faith techniques work for me. We are ultimately always alone with our individual pain and of course, alone with our death. Other people's sameness of fate is no comfort, believe me. Just heaps further upon further sadness about them and reinforcement of my own onrushing fate. Books & children are no posterity that I can take comfort from. Does you no good in the grave. and eventually they too rot and putrefy Lets not reduce the value of life (what some would call its sanctity) to mere pragmatism; that would help solve the pensions short fall.

Efficiency and progress is ours once more...
It's nice and clean and gets things done...

This post was last edited by sulcus, 02 Feb 2010, 16:31
"A,B&E", "Not In My Name" and "52FF" (flash fiction anthology) all available on Amazon Kindle

"How a psychopath makes sweet love. I can get you ringside. Royal box even."
AntCity
 02 Feb 2010, 19:35 #81157 Reply To Post
Quote: sulcus, Tuesday, 2 Feb 2010 16:28
Quote: AntCity, Tuesday, 2 Feb 2010 14:09
Quote: sulcus, Tuesday, 2 Feb 2010 11:01
Considered here on my blog


Interesting blog. Both of your examples, Pratchett and Potter, are famous for their minds not their bodies. Both, at your point of recall, were still thinking. At what point do you jump, drink, inject? When comes the point when there is nothing left to give?

I heard Pratchett on the radio talking about some conjured up little old lady, rapping on the table with her walking stick, the panel of ethical experts sitting before her, demanding she should be allowed to go now. Seems to me she had loads of life left in her. The most interesting point I felt he made, was when considering the progress of his disease which at some point would strip him of both the consciousness, memories and identity of THE Terry Pratchett which he has built up over the past 59 years to equal who he is today - so that this former (current day) Terry Pratchett wants to rule over the death of a different Terry Pratchett that the disease will wreak and impose in his stead. At what point can such transformation be said to have definitively occurred?

We are all born to die. Life has no meaning without death. Disagree. If you stopped to consider it at any length - and I admit we seem constituted to push it as far away from our daily thought as possible - life has no meaning because of death which pulls the rug from under all of our achievements, loves and purpose. That's why religious creeds try and offer an escape clause Our children and our books are all born from our mortality. So at what point do we give up? When does a choice become a duty? When does a duty become compulsion? When does compulsion become law? When is my time to die decided by somebody else?

Pain and suffering. We are fortunate to live in a society where these things can be cloaked to a certain extent. The fear of decline and extinction cannot. Take comfort that we all share the same fate at some point. Take comfort? I can't. Neither self-help realisation nor religious faith techniques work for me. We are ultimately always alone with our individual pain and of course, alone with our death. Other people's sameness of fate is no comfort, believe me. Just heaps further upon further sadness about them and reinforcement of my own onrushing fate. Books & children are no posterity that I can take comfort from. Does you no good in the grave. and eventually they too rot and putrefy Lets not reduce the value of life (what some would call its sanctity) to mere pragmatism; that would help solve the pensions short fall.

Efficiency and progress is ours once more...
It's nice and clean and gets things done...



Terry Pratchett is of course free to end his life at any time of his own choosing. I just do not feel that a process of legalisation needs to be initiated that at some point down the road will make it compulsory for old, sick and poor people to switch themselves off. In my experience of alzheimers disease, those that watch suffer the most.

Life has no meaning without death. One of the criteria that defines life is the ability to die. Immortality removes motivation. The sure arrival of death is what gives us purpose.

Seek comfort in rational thought and science. You believe there is no conscious existence after death. You may be wrong. That's a 50% chance, odds even. Worth hoping. Maybe death is a portal to a new stage of development. What was our knowledge of impending change as we turned safely in the womb?

Our thoughts, our consciousness are energy. Energy cannot be destroyed.

Comes the dawn of a brand new day...


This post was last edited by AntCity, 02 Feb 2010, 19:42
sulcus
 03 Feb 2010, 00:13 #81175 Reply To Post
Quote: AntCity, Tuesday, 2 Feb 2010 19:35
Quote: sulcus, Tuesday, 2 Feb 2010 16:28
Quote: AntCity, Tuesday, 2 Feb 2010 14:09
Quote: sulcus, Tuesday, 2 Feb 2010 11:01
Considered here on my blog





Terry Pratchett is of course free to end his life at any time of his own choosing. I just do not feel that a process of legalisation needs to be initiated that at some point down the road will make it compulsory for old, sick and poor people to switch themselves off. In my experience of alzheimers disease, those that watch suffer the most. I don't really feel strongly about it either way

Life has no meaning without death. One of the criteria that defines life is the ability to die. Immortality removes motivation. The sure arrival of death is what gives us purpose. Just cannot agree with this. It is the inverse of what I believe, the two therefore have equal weight and becomes a 'is the glass half-full or half-empty ?' sort of question. Why and how is life defined by death, other than it is an inescapable physiological truth & fate? A bookend, topping and tailing with birth. But what defines the middle? Death/morbidity can remove purpose as much as instil it. I believe the majority of people are able to banish its nag to the remote parts of their conscious, so it does not trip them up from pursuing life as you say. It does not define or enable them. It is merely sidelined in order to enable them.

Seek comfort in rational thought and science. Ant you have got to be having a laugh? Rational thought & science? Quantum theory teaches us the limits of our 3d existence and linear thinking. Scientists have to invent particles the probabilities suggest ought to exist... You believe there is no conscious existence after death. You may be wrong. I'll put a bet on it, but I won't be able to collect my winnings... That's a 50% chance, odds even. based on what? Worth hoping. Maybe death is a portal to a new stage of development. What was our knowledge of impending change as we turned safely in the womb? None because we were to all intents & purposes pre-conscious. Which we will return to for eternity after death. Having momentarily flared with a brightly fulgurating consciousness for the span of our life

Our thoughts, our consciousness are energy. Energy cannot be destroyed. I actually agree with this, but sadly consciousness can be destroyed.

Comes the dawn of a brand new day...




"A,B&E", "Not In My Name" and "52FF" (flash fiction anthology) all available on Amazon Kindle

"How a psychopath makes sweet love. I can get you ringside. Royal box even."
AntCity
 03 Feb 2010, 10:57 #81213 Reply To Post
Quote: sulcus, Wednesday, 3 Feb 2010 00:13
Quote: AntCity, Tuesday, 2 Feb 2010 19:35
Quote: sulcus, Tuesday, 2 Feb 2010 16:28
Quote: AntCity, Tuesday, 2 Feb 2010 14:09
Quote: sulcus, Tuesday, 2 Feb 2010 11:01
Considered here on my blog





Terry Pratchett is of course free to end his life at any time of his own choosing. I just do not feel that a process of legalisation needs to be initiated that at some point down the road will make it compulsory for old, sick and poor people to switch themselves off. In my experience of alzheimers disease, those that watch suffer the most. I don't really feel strongly about it either way

Life has no meaning without death. One of the criteria that defines life is the ability to die. Immortality removes motivation. The sure arrival of death is what gives us purpose. Just cannot agree with this. It is the inverse of what I believe, the two therefore have equal weight and becomes a 'is the glass half-full or half-empty ?' sort of question. Why and how is life defined by death, other than it is an inescapable physiological truth & fate? A bookend, topping and tailing with birth. But what defines the middle? Death/morbidity can remove purpose as much as instil it. I believe the majority of people are able to banish its nag to the remote parts of their conscious, so it does not trip them up from pursuing life as you say. It does not define or enable them. It is merely sidelined in order to enable them.

Seek comfort in rational thought and science. Ant you have got to be having a laugh? Rational thought & science? Quantum theory teaches us the limits of our 3d existence and linear thinking. Scientists have to invent particles the probabilities suggest ought to exist... You believe there is no conscious existence after death. You may be wrong. I'll put a bet on it, but I won't be able to collect my winnings... That's a 50% chance, odds even. based on what? Worth hoping. Maybe death is a portal to a new stage of development. What was our knowledge of impending change as we turned safely in the womb? None because we were to all intents & purposes pre-conscious. Which we will return to for eternity after death. Having momentarily flared with a brightly fulgurating consciousness for the span of our life

Our thoughts, our consciousness are energy. Energy cannot be destroyed. I actually agree with this, but sadly consciousness can be destroyed.

Comes the dawn of a brand new day...






I travel in hope rather than expectation. I look into the abyss in search of hand and foot-holds. I read literature and poetry to find ideas that feed the hope. I look at my parents and remember my grandparents to remind me that proximity to death did not destroy the enjoyment of life. I argue with friends and family about religion, hoping that I am wrong and seeking to be convinced

Hope is all that is left...,oh, and Nick Cave singing Dylan;

When the cities are on fire
With the burning flesh of men
Just remember that death is not the end

but I suspect a degree of irony here.
AntCity
 03 Feb 2010, 13:45 #81227 Reply To Post
Quote: sulcus, Wednesday, 3 Feb 2010 00:13
Quote: AntCity, Tuesday, 2 Feb 2010 19:35
[/quote



Our thoughts, our consciousness are energy. Energy cannot be destroyed. I actually agree with this, but sadly consciousness can be destroyed.





I am using the conservation of energy idea in my story about the twice atom-bombed Japanese man. Struggling with plot and dialogue a little at the moment.

How do you know that consciousness can be destroyed? Your belief is no more or less valid than the Pope's. There is either nothing after death, or something. A fifty/fifty chance. The famous goat or car game-show competition shows that you stand more chance of winning if you change your choice.

Then the worry becomes, what if there is something and I ain't prayed to it?

Born to lose, baby we were born to lose.

This post was last edited by AntCity, 03 Feb 2010, 14:03
Nestat
 05 Feb 2010, 02:21 #81279 Reply To Post
Ah, belief.

Quote: AntCity, Wednesday, 3 Feb 2010 13:45
Your belief is no more or less valid than the Pope's.

Beliefs based on observable fact are more valid than beliefs based on cultural superstition. The problem is that we don't always recognise this in ourselves, yet we are more than ready to see it in others.

Still, loss of consciousness can be observed and measured, yet the idea of the soul remains very firmly in the realms of belief. To entertain the realistic possibility of an afterlife is to confuse reality with a fiction borne of human nature.

Besides which, I find it insulting that anyone could be compared to the pope, a man who complains that he is being persecuted for not being allowed to persecute homosexuals.

Quote: AntCity, Wednesday, 3 Feb 2010 13:45
There is either nothing after death, or something. A fifty/fifty chance.

Sophistry. By that reasoning, everyone who plays it has a fifty-fifty chance of winning the Euromillions jackpot. It's just not true.

Quote: AntCity, Wednesday, 3 Feb 2010 13:45
The famous goat or car game-show competition shows that you stand more chance of winning if you change your choice.

Mathematically speaking, this is true. It is very much like Schrodinger's famous cat experiment - ie. it only works in theory, not in practice.

Quote: AntCity, Wednesday, 3 Feb 2010 13:45
Then the worry becomes, what if there is something and I ain't prayed to it?

Then your safest bet is surely to pray to none at all. If there isn't a god, you have wasted nothing. If there is a god then:

(1) If it is a just god, as long as you tried to lead a good life then you will be all right.

(2) If it is not a just god and requires us to worship it, it is far more likely to be pissed off if you worshipped the wrong god rather than none at all. And humanity has had many gods, so the odds of you picking the right one are infinitesimally small.

(3) The above two arguments are based on deity whose behaviour is predictable. If it cannot be predicted, then there is no point in worshipping it because there is no way of knowing how to worship it or even whether it wants you to.
Writing for yourself is writing for others: "My book could very well end up being reconstituted as a trestle table in a home for battered women." - Alan Partridge
AntCity
 05 Feb 2010, 08:55 #81286 Reply To Post
I don't think I compared anyone to the Pope but I certainly do not feel constrained, by your sensitivities, in expressing myself.

I assume the Pope believes there is something after death. He can't prove it. Sulcus believes there is nothing after death, he can't prove it either. As a consumer wishing to make a choice, who should I believe?

There is something or nothing. Fifty/fifty. Not the fourteen million possibilities of picking the right numbers on the Euro Millions.

So, instead of spending the rest of my life scared stiff about the extinction of my consciousness after death, it seems more amenable to accept there is something. As to what that might be, who knows?
This post was last edited by AntCity, 05 Feb 2010, 09:09
AntCity
 05 Feb 2010, 09:31 #81291 Reply To Post
Quote: Nestat, Friday, 5 Feb 2010 02:21
.



Quote: AntCity, Wednesday, 3 Feb 2010 13:45
The famous goat or car game-show competition shows that you stand more chance of winning if you change your choice.

Mathematically speaking, this is true. It is very much like Schrodinger's famous cat experiment - ie. it only works in theory, not in practice.



Does work in practice; they did it on Horizon!

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