|
sulcus
|
|
|
|
Okay I'm only 50 pages into this and I don't agree with much of what he says, but it's certainly a thought-provoking (and literary provoking to judge by the outcry it prompted on release) rwad, considering the relationship of fiction, the novel (all art) to 'reality'. If I can start you off with this: If all stories have been written countless times, then creativity must lie at the level of the sentence. In which case, all authors must pay much more heed to their language, their metaphorical style. To distinguish it from others. Discuss
"A,B&E", "Not In My Name" and "52FF" (flash fiction anthology) all available on Amazon Kindle"How a psychopath makes sweet love. I can get you ringside. Royal box even."
|
|
pipio
|
|
|
|
Hi, Sulcus. Long time no talk. It's true the same story is told a thousand times. Like songs with the same chord sequence that are entirely different. (e.g. Radiohead's 'Creep' and the Hollies' 'Air that I breathe'). The sentence (or lyrical phrasing) is vital to convey certain emotions or circumstances. But, for me, it's also the conflict, potential loss or journey to resolution which must be laid before the reader in tiny steps we know as sentences. How we do it as writers varies. Some build a magnificent stairway of prose that leads to a reader's Nirvana. While others (like me) struggle with their unweildy, higgledy-piggledy breeze blocks, hoping the reader makes sense of it.
... an honest insult is so much better than an insincere flattery...
|
|
fxs60
|
|
|
|
‘If all stories have been written countless times, then creativity must lie at the level of the sentence. In which case, all authors must pay much more heed to their language, their metaphorical style. To distinguish it from others.’ Instinct tells me to agree with this. However, a good many readers simply want story, nothing purple, nothing fancy - just the “meat and two veg, please.” A few years ago I read Kazuo Ishiguro’s novel ‘Never Let Me Go’. I believe I enjoyed it pretty well. I understood his lukewarm, understated language and how this offset the grim revelation of what lay in store for his characters. But I hadn’t realised how unaffected I was by the narrative until I recently watched the film version. The story then hung over me for days, stalking me like some miserable rain cloud. Because of my admiration for writers, I’m dismayed this wasn’t something I could experience from the book. I’m also frequently told here on YWO that my style (or voice, as I prefer to think of it) interferes with the story. I do want to make the language ‘sing’. On the other hand, I don’t want to sound like Wagner (another musical reference) who’s been accused of ‘wonderful moments coupled with dreadful half hours.’ The Shields book sounds like something I might enjoy. I’m putting it on my loooong list of ‘Things I Must Read’…
Self-expression is self-expression, rather than self-expression
|
|
sulcus
|
|
|
|
Quote: fxs60, Thursday, 17 Mar 2011 16:50‘If all stories have been written countless times, then creativity must lie at the level of the sentence. In which case, all authors must pay much more heed to their language, their metaphorical style. To distinguish it from others.’ Instinct tells me to agree with this. However, a good many readers simply want story, nothing purple, nothing fancy - just the “meat and two veg, please.” A few years ago I read Kazuo Ishiguro’s novel ‘Never Let Me Go’. I believe I enjoyed it pretty well. I understood his lukewarm, understated language and how this offset the grim revelation of what lay in store for his characters. But I hadn’t realised how unaffected I was by the narrative until I recently watched the film version. The story then hung over me for days, stalking me like some miserable rain cloud. Because of my admiration for writers, I’m dismayed this wasn’t something I could experience from the book. I’m also frequently told here on YWO that my style (or voice, as I prefer to think of it) interferes with the story. I do want to make the language ‘sing’. On the other hand, I don’t want to sound like Wagner (another musical reference) who’s been accused of ‘wonderful moments coupled with dreadful half hours.’ The Shields book sounds like something I might enjoy. I’m putting it on my loooong list of ‘Things I Must Read’… I've always steered clear of Ishiguro for exactly the reason you cite. I've heard he's cold and uninvolving. I think this afflicts several of the 'big' UK authors, Amis, Swift, Barnes, even McEwan in some instances - "Solar" was horrible in this respect, but parts of "Atonement" and even the much derided "On Chesil Beach" do demonstrate an enotional intelligence.
"A,B&E", "Not In My Name" and "52FF" (flash fiction anthology) all available on Amazon Kindle"How a psychopath makes sweet love. I can get you ringside. Royal box even."
|
|
dancingsue
|
|
|
|
Quote: sulcus, Thursday, 17 Mar 2011 09:37Okay I'm only 50 pages into this and I don't agree with much of what he says, but it's certainly a thought-provoking (and literary provoking to judge by the outcry it prompted on release) rwad, considering the relationship of fiction, the novel (all art) to 'reality'. If I can start you off with this: If all stories have been written countless times, then creativity must lie at the level of the sentence. In which case, all authors must pay much more heed to their language, their metaphorical style. To distinguish it from others. Discuss What - again?
the long and the short of it
|
|
sulcus
|
|
|
|
Quote: dancingsue, Monday, 21 Mar 2011 16:33Quote: sulcus, Thursday, 17 Mar 2011 09:37Okay I'm only 50 pages into this and I don't agree with much of what he says, but it's certainly a thought-provoking (and literary provoking to judge by the outcry it prompted on release) rwad, considering the relationship of fiction, the novel (all art) to 'reality'. If I can start you off with this: If all stories have been written countless times, then creativity must lie at the level of the sentence. In which case, all authors must pay much more heed to their language, their metaphorical style. To distinguish it from others. Discuss What - again? I don't remember the first time... refresh my memory if you wouldn't mind
"A,B&E", "Not In My Name" and "52FF" (flash fiction anthology) all available on Amazon Kindle"How a psychopath makes sweet love. I can get you ringside. Royal box even."
|
|
dancingsue
|
|
|
|
It seems to boil down to the same thing we've argued many times. Is there a new way of saying anything and does it have to be readable to be valid?
the long and the short of it
|
|
sulcus
|
|
|
|
Quote: dancingsue, Monday, 21 Mar 2011 18:50It seems to boil down to the same thing we've argued many times. Is there a new way of saying anything Shields would argue no, but see that as a good thing and recommends mash-ups of styles as much as contentand does it have to be readable to be valid? yes always, I don't think you & I disagree on this one salient point, even if we do on almost everything else. Art has to communicate on some level with its audience. Where I disagree with Shields and possibly you as well, is that there is a vast unexplored territory for novel work in novels and that is language itself. For, if I may borrow a term for physics, uncovering the elementary particles of language and bringing them to the fore.
"A,B&E", "Not In My Name" and "52FF" (flash fiction anthology) all available on Amazon Kindle"How a psychopath makes sweet love. I can get you ringside. Royal box even."
|
|
dancingsue
|
|
|
|
Quote: sulcus, Monday, 21 Mar 2011 19:35Quote: dancingsue, Monday, 21 Mar 2011 18:50It seems to boil down to the same thing we've argued many times. Is there a new way of saying anything Shields would argue no, but see that as a good thing and recommends mash-ups of styles as much as contentand does it have to be readable to be valid? yes always, I don't think you & I disagree on this one salient point, even if we do on almost everything else. Art has to communicate on some level with its audience. Where I disagree with Shields and possibly you as well, is that there is a vast unexplored territory for novel work in novels and that is language itself. For, if I may borrow a term for physics, uncovering the elementary particles of language and bringing them to the fore. I thought we discussed that a couple of weeks ago. The elementary particles are words, however fancy you wrap them up. It's the way you cobble 'em together that counts. Phew, my brain hurts after that monster revelation.
the long and the short of it
|
|
sulcus
|
|
|
|
Quote: dancingsue, Monday, 21 Mar 2011 19:40Quote: sulcus, Monday, 21 Mar 2011 19:35Quote: dancingsue, Monday, 21 Mar 2011 18:50It seems to boil down to the same thing we've argued many times. Is there a new way of saying anything Shields would argue no, but see that as a good thing and recommends mash-ups of styles as much as contentand does it have to be readable to be valid? yes always, I don't think you & I disagree on this one salient point, even if we do on almost everything else. Art has to communicate on some level with its audience. Where I disagree with Shields and possibly you as well, is that there is a vast unexplored territory for novel work in novels and that is language itself. For, if I may borrow a term for physics, uncovering the elementary particles of language and bringing them to the fore. I thought we discussed that a couple of weeks ago. The elementary particles are words, however fancy you wrap them up. It's the way you cobble 'em together that counts. Phew, my brain hurts after that monster revelation. no I think potentially meaning starts at the sub-unit of the phoneme rather than the lexeme, but even the lexeme allows you room to manoeuvre via the etymological root
"A,B&E", "Not In My Name" and "52FF" (flash fiction anthology) all available on Amazon Kindle"How a psychopath makes sweet love. I can get you ringside. Royal box even."
|
|
David Shields - "Reality Hunger"
17 Mar 2011, 09:37
